BABAK ANVARI TALKS WOUNDS

Behind the Coastline

You are reading an independently published interview-series published and carefully curated by Swedish pop-culture journalist Daniel John. Ever since its start in 2015, the core curiosity remains the same, surfing the creative currents of music, film, fashion and everything else on the pop-radar, catching the waves of culture as creative

Culture Coast TalksDaniel John

Released theatrically in the U.S. and out on Netflix in the rest of the world, ‘Wounds’ follows a bartender, Will, as some mysterious things begin to happen when he picks up a poorly locked smartphone left behind in the grimy New Orleans bar he is working in. A story you adapted from a novel, what made this a story you wanted to tell on screen?

After 'Under the Shadow', my first film, Chris Kopp, one of the producers on 'Wounds', came to me and my producing partner, Lucan Toh, and told us that he knew of a novella, originally titled 'The Visible Filth', by Nathan Ballingrud and that he thought I would be very interested. I wasn’t necessarily looking to do another film in that genre space, but I read the novella and it blew me away. It was so visceral and engaging and haunted me for days. It spoke to me on so many different levels and I knew exactly how to turn it into a film. So, I decided to adapt it, and that is how the journey started.

Your previous film clearly was deeply personal, perhaps even autobiographical in some sense. How was it different adapting a story like this, that were already written out. Were you able to find yourself in it?

This movie is also personal even though it’s an adaptation. If I don’t find myself in a story or don’t relate to it on some level, then I don’t think I can make it. I think first and foremost, what really got my interest was that it is a story about insecurities. Especially those insecurities that we feel in our late twenties and in our thirties. Who am I, am I happy, am I content. Is life about having fun or there’s more to it. Am I in the right relationship. Am I in the right job. Am I wasting my life. Am I missing out on something. And so on, and so forth. We are all very insecure creatures and we sometimes carry some or all of these insecurities for the rest of our lives. But I think the pinnacle of it is in your late twenties and your thirties, when you have to grow into a “responsible adult”. The main cast and me and also some of the key-head of department people, we’re all around the same age so I think we all connected with the story in the same way. I certainly suffer from a lot of these insecurities. And if you’re not careful, these insecurities can put you on a very dark path.

What the two films share is a focus on character driven storytelling, relying not on jump scares or shock value, but on carefully crafted arcs of events. The storytelling evokes the lingering tension of classics like 'The Shining' or 'The Thing'. Both are deeply unsettling, perhaps precisely because of that lingering–quality?

Thanks so much for your kind words. I am a massive fan of both of those films so it’s a great compliment! From the very beginning I was adamant to make a film that is a bit puzzle-like, so you have to put the clues together or linger on it to work it out. So, I’m very glad that you’re saying that. I hope it worked. Some of my favorite films are the ones I will keep revisiting and each time I find a new thing in them. Like films by Lynch or Haneke, and of course Kubrick. Basically, conversation-starters. That really interests me when a film stays with you and makes you want to interpret it or decipher it or try to work it out. But I also did not want to take myself too seriously and make sure it’s also a bit of fun, Lynch is a master of that. Every time I make a film, I ask myself, “Would I go and watch this film as an audience-member?” and the answer has to be “Yes!” So in all honesty, I wanted to make a relationship-drama that slowly twists into a surreal, "Lovecraftian", nightmare. This idea excited me. So, I wouldn’t have made the film if I couldn’t execute it the way I wanted.

Do you feel audiences now have the attention span?

Talking about attention span, it really disappoints me that some people can’t give a film that level of attention anymore. For instance, I was at the cinema last night and caught at least three people on their phones as the film was playing. Why? Are you so addicted to your phone that you can’t turn it off for two hours? Especially in a dark theatre with loads of people around you? So, you are not only being distracted yourself, you are distracting everyone else. It’s shocking. And I don’t get it. With some films, you look away for two minutes, you miss a crucial point. This short attention span is sometimes killing the magic of cinema. It doesn’t let you to be fully immersed in the world of the film. And is making some people lazy, wanting the storyteller to spoon feed them all the information. For me, some of the fun is to be immersed and try to interpret and work it out on your own.

Did you get to talk with the original author of the novel, while writing the adaption?

Almost weekly. He read every single draft of the script. I really enjoyed my conversations with him. The film is quite faithful to the novella, there are changes as it’s a different medium but the core of it is the same, and Nathan really appreciated that. He was my very first guide in New Orleans, really explaining the backdrop of the story to me. Interestingly, Nathan was a bartender at a dive bar in New Orleans for twelve years so he knew that world so well. And the bar he worked at was the inspiration behind Rosie’s, the bar in the film and in the original story. So, he was a huge help as I was adapting his story.

Was that real cockroaches in the film?

Yes they were! Hundreds of them. In a lot of the shots. Even in some of the VFX shots there are real cockroaches to help blend in the CG. So, we had containers of real cockroaches on the set with a cockroach wrangler, no jokes. One thing I learnt was that cockroaches really stink, especially when you have loads of them.

There are a lot of things you can argue are real or not in this film. The richness of metaphors seems almost endless. Even as the credits roll. I’m assuming people will either love or hate the ending too?

I made the film with that intention. The films that leave you with that sense of “I need to figure it out” really excite me. I wanted people to sit there over the credits and hopefully think about what they just watched and talk about it after. You’re right, it’s been polarising as some people don’t like that and want to know everything immediately. But I tried to design the film in a way that have some easter eggs and clues. So, hopefully by connecting the dots afterwards you can get a better understanding or even interpret it the way you want. But it also has a lot of horror tropes, especially body-horror Cronebergian tropes, so if you want to just enjoy the ride, go for it. I think it’s a badge of honour for me if different people interpret it differently. But, honestly, I don’t think it’s a film that is too hard to interpret. I think if you pay close attention everything is already there, at least I think.

The film opens with a quote from 'Heart of Darkness', which also resonates with the final line of dialogue. Whether or not Will is literally harvesting power from another dimension, it's easy to add up the many pillars of the film and just see a reflection back of the fragility of the human psyche and how easily one can slip into empty darkness?

Love it! I mentioned “insecurities” before, and if you’re not careful, insecurities can take you down the path of anger, or depression, or apathy, and so on. It’s interesting you mentioned the word “psyche” because a few people have also told me that they saw it as cracks or shall I say “wounds” in human psyche that can easily be infected or infested. Cockroaches also like to infest dark cracks and holes! (laughs)

What would be the most scary to you. If all this would actually happen to you or if it all was just in your head?

I think if it was all in my head. Because then I don’t know for sure if it’s real or not and that’s terrifying!

It’s also interesting how we, or at least how I found myself, kinda excusing Will for his behaviour and choices. Perhaps thinking he is under some kind of influence. But as a metaphor and in the context of the story not being supernatural, couldn’t that also just say something about a kind of male behaviour also being excused in our everyday lives?

Yes, indeed! That was intentional. When I started to develop the project it was before the real conversations about “toxic masculinity” that has been on going over the past few years, so focusing on the “descent of a man” in this story felt coincidentally timely. And it’s been brought up many times since the release of the film. Will, even though he is charming and affable, at least at the start, certainly makes some bad decisions. Which slowly exposes his true nature.

I heard you wrote it having Zazie Beetz in mind for Alicia. Was it the same with Armie?

Oddly enough, when I was writing it I didn’t have a specific actor in mind for Will. I just had this image of a handsome, charming, yet scruffy man, who was an amalgamation of some of my friends. Armie was the first actor I met and it was around the time that 'Call Me By Your Name' has come out. He is such a great man, not only a great actor but a truly great person, and we immediately became friends. I told him I have the script that I wanted to share but wasn’t sure if he’d go for it, especially after doing something so gentle like 'Call Me By Your Name'. He said I should share it. Two days later he emailed me, “Dude, you’re fucked in the head”. And that was it. He said he’s in. And I think he is the perfect cast for this role. What I love about Armie is that he loves a challenge and constantly wants to push himself. Which is only a testament to how brilliant he is. Same with Zazie and Dakota Johnson, in their parts. And you’re right, as I was writing the script I was watching 'Atlanta', I love that show, and I was picturing Zazie as Alicia. So, I’m so honoured and feel so lucky, that she came on board.

I think the fact that actors such as those being intrigued to work with you while they are also experiencing an all-time career high with films like ‘Call Me by Your Name’, ‘Deadpool’ and ‘Joker’, is telling of your amazing work. I don’t think they would star in just about any horror film at this point in their careers. Your direction comes with a certain nerve that they likely just wanted to get in on?

Thanks so much. That’s very kind of you. Yes, they had all watched 'Under the Shadow' before meeting me. I think it would have been weird if they had no idea about my previous work. I think beside being brilliant actors, they are all film lovers.

Your films doesn't have musical scores?

I just didn’t feel like it was necessary. I did the same with my first film, the only score in that film are over the opening and end credits. With 'Wounds' there are a lot of licensed music, play in the bar and so on, but no score. I wanted to create tension through sound design and atmosphere. I thought it would be a lot more natural and interesting. Also, sometimes using a score in the horror genre is a bit of a cheat. But sound design can affect you in a more creeping way, crawling under your skin without you even realising it.

What kind of directors and films have influenced you most?

The list of filmmakers who generally influence me is so long! I watch anything and everything, from blockbusters to indie and arthouse films, and get inspiration from all of them. I had a lot of influences. In the genre space, definitely David Cronenberg. This is kind of my love letter to him as I grew up watching his films, being both fascinated and disturbed by them. There’s obviously a massive nod to David Lynch and, of course, Nicolas Roeg, especially with his jarring cuts, which put you on edge. Also, maybe a bit of Clive Barker’s 'Hellraiser' as I watched it a lot in my late teens and early twenties. But then on the flipside, my other influences were nineties relationship dramas, like 'Reality Bites'. Also, 'Garden State' which is not nineties but early two-thousands. I kept saying I wanted to make the reverse of 'Garden State' in terms of the character’s journey! (laughs) As I said my idea was to make a relationship drama that turns into a Lovecraftian nightmare. And talking about a relationship drama, Bergman’s 'Scenes From a Marriage' was another major influence. I told one of my producers it’s a mix of Cronenbergian-horror with 'Scenes From a Marriage' but in the world of millennials, so you work it out! (laughs) There are others too, like Polanski’s early films, especially his "apartment"-trilogy including 'Repulsion', 'Rosemary’s Baby' and 'The Tenant', which also influenced 'Under the Shadow' too.

How did you get your start in the industry?

I went to film school in London, Westminster Film School. After graduating, I started doing odd jobs in the film industry, like being a runner on some very bad films. Then I found a job as a video editor at MTV in London. I worked there for eight years, I was also directing some live music-sessions when I was there which taught me a lot. Whilst I was there, I made short films and one of my shorts, 'Two and Two', got some attention at festivals and got nominated for a BAFTA in 2012. I signed with my UK agent then, and then started writing 'Under the Shadow', still working at MTV to pay the bills, and then my lovely producers managed to find some independent financing to make 'Under the Shadow' happen, so I quit my day job at MTV to go and make it. It was a risk as 'Under the Shadow' was really low budget and not a big pay day. But if you’re passionate, you have to take risks, I guess. It premiered at Sundance and, luckily, it was well received and opened more doors for me and finally we won a BAFTA for it. So, it has not been overnight and I am still at the very start of my career. But I always tell young filmmakers and film students that a combination of patience, passion and tenacity is key.

Have you always been a fan of horror films?

Yes, I have been. I get scared easily, but also have this strange curiosity to watch horror films and scare and disturb myself. It’s like self-harm! (Laughs) But I watch anything and everything and love all genres.

Do you see yourself making another horror film after this, or do you now want to make something different?

I want to show a bit variety, like I said I love all genres and like to experiment with different genres. So, not sure if my next film will be horror, but I don’t see why I won’t be revisiting it. But whatever I make, in whatever genre, I will certainly take the skills I’ve learnt on my first two films, which are horror, with me.

Are ‘North American Lake Monsters’ something you’re talking about yet?

We, me and my producing partner through our production company Two and Two Pictures, are producing a TV series based on that collection of short stories with Hulu and Annapurna TV. So, watch that space.

What will you be watching on this Halloween?

Probably 'The Orphanage' by J.A. Bayona. I’ve started this tradition that every year I have a few friends over on Halloween night and we watch a horror film, usually, a film that I am excited to introduce to them. I love 'The Orphanage'. But they have not seen it yet, so it will be cool to see what they think.