GREG JOHNSON TALKS TOEJAM & EARL: BACK IN THE GROOVE

Interviewed by Culture Coast Talks editor Daniel John. Interview transcripts might have been edited for length and clarity.

It’s been twenty-eight years since the funkiest alien duo from Funkatron first set foot on earth but as of this year they are back. What made it the right time for their return?

Honestly because it was the first year I could make it happen. I’ve been trying to find a way to bring da alienz back for a few decades now. Thanks to crowd-funding and retro-mania it finally happened!

So you actually made several attempts over these years?

Yes! I have been knocking on publishers doors for years with no luck. No one wanted to take a risk on an old property. Hurray for self-publishing and indiepower! Not having a publisher also let me focus on making the game I really wanted to make.

I think a lot of people, even if they have not necessarily played them, are aware of the ‘ToeJam and Earl’ games because the IP is so unique. "Roguelike" is a bit of a thing right now, but it was not a concept back then?

You put your finger on the answer to the gameplay in the question, this game was conceived in 1980, so this was before the idea of roguelikes. All there was back then, was 'Rogue'. I was a huge fan of that original game, and yes 'Toejam & Earl' is just 'Rogue' with few little twists of its own. Thematically I have always had aliens on the brain, and I love funk music and am a child of the 70’s and 80’s. For some reason, which I can’t understand now, I saw no reason why I couldn’t just slap those things together.

Both sequels, ‘Panic on Funkatron’ and ‘Mission to Earth’, were odd departures from the first game. The sequels moved towards being more traditional platforming games. Was that your vision or just a sign of the times?

(Laughs) That was a result of publishers who did not think a sequel to the first game would sell, simple. Can not say I am totally sorry though, sometimes creativity thrives when given constraints and challenges. But both of those games started out to be truer sequels to game one and our publishers had us change direction mid-stream.

Is there any chance of releasing the third one as a remaster or at least through Xbox backward compatibility?

Yes! Unfortunately the chance is so ridiculously small, it verges on a quantum number. Sega owns the rights to that code and because of its poor sales the game was generally considered a failure. I prefer to think of it as an enjoyable experiment.

The original two were key Sega Mega Drive titles. Was there ideas around making another one for Sega Saturn as well?

Mmmmm not really. Perhaps it was just the timing, but we were never asked to think about doing a Saturn title.

‘Mission to Earth’ however was one of many Dreamcast games that ultimately ended up on the Xbox instead?

Yup! We built it for the Dreamcast first and we were pretty bummed out when the Dreamcast was dropped by Sega, the game was about three quarters done, and we had online multiplayer working too. You may have heard that the Dreamcast version was discovered on some old hard drive and released into the wilds “unofficially” some years back for Dreamcast aficionados to enjoy. The Dreamcast was such a great machine!

ToeJam and Earl Productions waved off after that. When did this new studio, HumaNature, come into being?

I started HumaNature Studios in 2006 to build a Nintendo DS game called 'What’s Your Type?' for Konami that never got released. This game eventually evolved into a first party title called 'Doki Doki Universe' for Sony which was released in 2013. Making games requires a tremendous amount of persistence and faith. When one door closes you can’t give up.

Where is the franchise's co-creator Mark Voorsanger these days?

Mark left the gaming industry back around 2003, or so. He was a fantastic engineer but his heart was really more in the realm of people and today he works teaching collaboration and leadership as a counselor at Stanford and various places. We are still good friends and he is always a part of any 'Toejam & Earl' project, even if it’s just to give his blessing and support.

You started making games already in 1983. Those were the times of ‘Dig Dug’, and ‘Space Invaders’. You must've seen the industry change plenty from the inside over the years?

(Laughs) Are you trying to point out how old I am. Well no getting around it I suppose. Yup, there are certainly some who have been in the game development biz longer than me but not many, and even fewer as an indie developer for thirty-five plus years. I have seen the industry go through many cycles and changes, and grow from pretty much nothing. I do gotta say I miss the old days when I knew pretty much everyone else making games, and when it was a lot lower pressure. It’s still fun, but it is a lot more stressful and money-driven than it used to be.

Your first game was ‘Starlight,’ one of EA Games’ earliest releases?

Yes, straight out of college to making that game. It was really an incredible and very memorable experience, it was a very special time for me I lived out of my penny jar on the floor of an empty apartment with absolutely no furniture, not even a bed or a table. I had no idea what I was doing designing a game, but then a fellow named Paul Reiche, appeared out of nowhere with a halo around his head and he guided me in steps to designing my first game. Paul is one of those few people who has been in the industry longer than me. He had already released a game with EA called 'Archon', he runs a company these days called Toys For Bob, they made 'Skylanders'. Paul and I are still best friends.

What made you want to create games in the first place?

Back in 1980 we did not really know what video games were. It was a new concept and we sorta made it up as we went along. I never planned to do it it just sort of happened and I always thought I would go back to Grad School and study marine mammal communication. That hasn’t happened yet.

A couple of years back I also talked to the ‘Sonic Mania’ devs which is just another great example of making something creative around nostalgia. And the desire for more retro is still going. Why do you think nostalgia is thriving so?

Retro is big for many reasons. Enough time has to pass before you can have a retro movement and enough time has passed. People look back to simpler and perhaps more creative less money-driven times, and also retro games are a bit obscure and often kinda weird by today’s standards which makes them cool to anyone who likes the idea of being a bit rebellious and non-mainstream, in other words most young gamers.

While ‘Back in the Groove’ surely has it’s nostalgic charm. Did you also want to surprise? 

Of course! There are exactly 2037 new features in 'Back in the Groove', so in addition to being a nostalgia blast it is also it’s own new thing. By the way, I made that up about the 2037 new features. I think there are only 1,953.

Did any of the newer “roguelikes” inspire?

I did pull some ideas from some of the newer roguelikes in a general sense for example the idea of having a meta-game, where completing the game unlocks features that changes the game in future playthroughs, that is a newer concept from games like 'Binding of Isaac' or 'Enter the Gungeon'. Mainly though 'Toejam & Earl' is its own thing.

Music was always a big part of the games, who did you work with on the audio now?

Burke Treischmann did the audio for this game as he also did the audio for most of my past games since the mid-90’s, including 'Mission to Earth'. Cody Wright did the bass and guitar for this new one and, oh my god, go check out his videos on YouTube. Cody is a superstar. I made up a lot of the songs myself. As I love doing that sort of thing. Nick Stubblefield did some awesome funky keyboard jams. Tonez the Prince and Greg Brown did vocals on the theme song as well as voiced the characters in the game, sadly Greg Brown has passed on. Rest in peace Greg. We love you!

I’m thinking the series probably could expand a lot into other things, like a animated series or like a comic?

I'm hoping to get a series off the ground and trying hard to make that happen, If anyone out there has any great connections to "Hollywood people" who happen to be fans of 'Toejam & Earl' be sure to get in touch and let me know!

Many years have passed, there’s been some hiccups, there’s been some delays. But now everyone can enjoy the game. How did it feel to finally bringing them back again. How has the reception been?

When we released the game it still had a quite a few bugs and problems, the reception was quite good but mixed because of the bugs. There seem to be a lot of 'Toejam & Earl' fans in the press which is really nice, we have been trying hard for almost a year after release to be fixing bugs and listening to what our fans want and making changes and additions. I think we have done a pretty good job and I hope the fans feel like it’s the game they have wanted.

In retrospect, did you realise what you were getting yourself into?

Not a chance, I had no idea what was involved for doing online play, that easily doubled the time and budget for the game. And if I could do it over again now I probably wouldn’t try to tackle that without more resources, somehow we made it out alive though so now I am glad we did. Phew! Live and learn eh?

Any chance for a fifth 'Toejam and Earl'?

We are still busy doing ports of 'Back in the Groove' to new platforms and new languages, as well as cranking up the framerate and adding features and so on. Far as new 'Toejam & Earl' games goes, we are talking to one group about funding for a new "group oriented game" and we are very excited about it. I can’t talk too much about it yet or I might jinx it.